tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post5473149885239434477..comments2024-03-21T03:15:06.288-04:00Comments on Cozy Beehive: Modern Bicycles and Cycling Speeds : Any Measurable Relation?Ron Georgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-76335928261873579432014-01-08T20:07:17.739-05:002014-01-08T20:07:17.739-05:00Take two Pro's of equal power output, put one ...Take two Pro's of equal power output, put one on a 15,000 dollar bike, put the other on a 1950 bike and let them race for 3 stages. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-12430903954842436082010-11-08T23:44:07.245-05:002010-11-08T23:44:07.245-05:00The advances are not really for huge, blockbuster ...The advances are not really for huge, blockbuster type increases on speed I would think. They just add a few milliseconds or seconds here and there that at the end of the day is what can make a difference between 1st and 10th. Otherwise, I would agree with the study.<br /><br />The average recreational rider will probably find a 20+ pound "old school" bike to provide performance comparable to that of a new light carbon fiber frame. The again, it does feel different. I am sure I could run the same speeds on my running shoes and my work shoes, but I'd rather run on my running shoes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-86999596995071288172010-09-11T20:04:25.338-04:002010-09-11T20:04:25.338-04:00thanks for this useful informationthanks for this useful informationorder acaihttp://orderacaiberry.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-36108076593790333132010-09-06T02:00:06.674-04:002010-09-06T02:00:06.674-04:00Hi Ron,
A good analysis, really. I wish you had p...Hi Ron,<br /><br />A good analysis, really. I wish you had passed the critique and suggestions by us first... because then we could explain.<br /><br />1. Marathons use street courses with variable terrain, wind, etc. 5 and 10 km races are on the track, which varies little.<br /><br />2. We specifically excluded time trials, because there is no doubt that aerobars have increased speeds there. However, most recreational riders and randonneurs use racing bikes, not time trial bikes. We wanted to know whether racing bikes have improved. (There is no doubt that time trial bikes are faster now than they were 50 years ago. Look at the Hour Record!)<br /><br />3. Obviously, there are many things that can be investigated... but we chose to investigate bicycle technology.<br /><br />4. When you look at the year-to-year variability of the Tour, you see that it's remarkably little. So the Tours appear to be roughly of the same difficulty from year to year. The length of the average TdF stages hasn't changed as much as most people think, at least since the late 1920s. We did an analysis that factored average stage length, but it didn't correlate with speed, so clearly that isn't a factor.<br /><br />5. We have compared older and new bikes. In fact, we did compare the hillclimbing speeds of a 1973 Alex Singer Randonneur bike and a Trek Madone in the same issue. However, people don't believe it when you point out that even 5 lbs. of bike weight can be masked by differences in daily form. They point to the Tour de France to show that modern bicycles are faster. So we looked at the Tour...<br /><br />Feel free to post.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Jan Heine (editor, Bicycle Quarterly)Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-71692621105051377772010-09-04T01:54:45.833-04:002010-09-04T01:54:45.833-04:00Thanks Don. Hopefully the authors can improve on t...Thanks Don. Hopefully the authors can improve on this take and continue to expand on this study. It was a good first attempt. Obviously, it would need good data and careful analysis, keeping in mind always the questions "what are we trying to answer?" and "what are the best ways to get the answers?"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12256394060474969622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-8367851188527793432010-08-29T22:16:07.545-04:002010-08-29T22:16:07.545-04:00I just got the magazine (I bought an entire year&#...I just got the magazine (I bought an entire year's worth, and subscribed for two more) and read the article.<br /><br />A fundamental problem with the analysis was the regression omitted race length as a parameter. The Milan-San Remo results, which lack this source of variability, clearly show distance is a strong predictor of speed. It would be interesting to see a 2-parameter AnOVa and then see the remaining correlation between Tour speed and running speed.<br /><br />They could have done an analysis correlating the Tour speed with the winning speed in the Indy 500 and they probably would have also gotten a strong correlation. Simply correlating time-series data, each of which are under the general trend of improvement over time from a wide variety of factors, isn't enough to demonstrate causality.djconnelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484858820878605035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-6356786590234200212010-08-27T12:06:17.242-04:002010-08-27T12:06:17.242-04:00@Tom-
There is no reliable way to blind the study...@Tom-<br /><br />There is no reliable way to blind the study in a reasonable way. People may subconsciously try harder on the current bike to make it look better. Someone mentioned it above. You'd have to have the bikes fitted 100% the same and then blindfold the riders to get anything close to properly blinded. It'd be a boatload of issuesNatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174378205222344598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-32562273256527176952010-08-27T11:47:52.910-04:002010-08-27T11:47:52.910-04:00Great article and that Procycling issue is August ...Great article and that Procycling issue is August 2009. Here is a quick summary.<br /> <br />Test Bike 1: 1983 Pinarello 54cm 9.6kg super record equipped with SRM cranks/power meter.<br />Test Bike 2: 2009 LaPierre X-Lite II. Full carbon, EC90 fork Dura Ace and SRM equipped.<br />Riders: Riders from top french DN1 team which includes several riders for french national team.<br />Computers set so riders see no data (subjects can't view SRM)<br /><br />Riders ride on their own, no pacing.<br />Half of riders ride Pinarello and other half Lapierre.<br /><br />Comments on Pinarello- Flexes everywhere, especially descents, brakes slow to respond, have to fight the bike on climbs... Cinelli Wedge saddle excellent.<br /> <br />Comments on Lapierre- Excellent, very stiff, responsive...<br />Test Results- virtually no difference in riders heart rate and cadence on each bike. Key finding is due to stiffness of Lapierre, riders were capable of providing 10 watts more in intense time trial type effort. Pinarello, being less rigid, absorbed 3.1 percent of riders energy. Resulting in difference of 18 seconds. On an ascent of Galibier, difference calculated to be 2min 06sec. between bikes. <br /><br />Expert estimates in the TDF, difference would be not less than 3-5kph. 1983 Fignon won at average of 36.23kpg, 2008, Sastre won at average speed of 40.492kph. A difference of 4kph over 25 years. <br /><br />Timed Runs (avg. of 7 riders data/bike)<br /> <br /> Lapierre Pinarello<br />Time 8-56 9-15<br />Output 317.6 308.1<br />Speed 18.3 17.7 <br />Cadence 77.7 77.1<br />Heart bpm 168 167Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-54029565931585084922010-08-27T01:00:57.141-04:002010-08-27T01:00:57.141-04:00why engage is this longitudinal study when the obv...why engage is this longitudinal study when the obvious study design would be to take one of today's athletes and measure them riding on one of todays bike and then again on a series of older bikes (should be able to find or create these). This has been done with tennis rackets for instance, and the answer is that todays tennis players can serve almost as fast with an old wooden dunlop as with the latest model. I would not be surprised to find a similar answer with bikes. The study design is simple and the results would be more convincing than the study presentedTom Boylesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-44172622824857956362010-08-24T23:01:28.175-04:002010-08-24T23:01:28.175-04:00Just take your old 70s bike out to a local race or...Just take your old 70s bike out to a local race or club ride and tell me there's little improvement. I use mine during the winter and it sucks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-10129497338656645272010-08-24T16:52:35.469-04:002010-08-24T16:52:35.469-04:00A couple of other missing points:
Rider position...A couple of other missing points: <br /><br />Rider position on the bike and how it changed over the years- there may be an advantage in aerodynamics that would be very difficult to accurately gauge, but would certainly have an effect.<br /><br />Size of the race- more riders, more riders to share the load on the front. This would likely increase speeds. Is there a correlation between pace and field size? DNFs would matter for this statistic, as well, as early stages may be faster and slow as more riders exit the race. Field size would also matter in the mountains as more riders would likely mean more possible attacks. <br /><br />Excellent topic!Sean Yeagerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12651730382912484783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-70111644472325779922010-08-24T12:22:50.179-04:002010-08-24T12:22:50.179-04:00Remember that wind resistance goes up with speed. ...Remember that wind resistance goes up with speed. More speed requires even more power!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-45971263193123680272010-08-24T10:35:16.660-04:002010-08-24T10:35:16.660-04:00The BQ article really did not answer the question ...The BQ article really did not answer the question of whether modern bikes are faster. It addressed the specific question of whether modern bikes make grand tours like the TdF faster. Speculating from the armchair, it seems to me that the effects of the peleton swallow up small efficiencies from bicycle improvements; i.e., to get the peleton to go from 28 to 30 mph requires much more power than what a better bike can provide. <br /><br />Jan Heine and Mark Vande Kamp are correct that human elements will taint any side-by-side experiment. Although I suspect that it will still provide valuable information on the question. <br /><br />Perhaps a more interesting experiment would be to see how modern bicycles have affected climbing times at the Col de Tourmalet or similar. The speeds come down and the peleton typically breaks up. I would think that one would get a better idea of the bicycle's effect.Invisible Handhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02680372478096503049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-84062981027177477602010-08-24T01:50:01.466-04:002010-08-24T01:50:01.466-04:00Every year the "masters " are on in St J...Every year the "masters " are on in St Johann, Tyrol and the TT course i think has remained the same !<br /><br />Perhaps someone with a little knowledge will be able to make the argument about what has changed during that stabilised period ?<br /><br />Currently here but not racing and i am seeing bikes from all periods as well as Personalities who have been coming since the 1940's !<br /><br />Thought i had posted an earlier comment but has ir disappeared?skippyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10045948860442711266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-10799444095472278282010-08-23T12:26:30.005-04:002010-08-23T12:26:30.005-04:00I only skimmed it so I might be missing something,...I only skimmed it so I might be missing something, but I would think it might be better to compare 10k WR times/speeds to time trial of similar time. You'd think the effort would be about the same and there would be less strategy BS like you'd see in a pack which would complicate analysis. So you would have a more clear picture of the effects of the bikes. But this analysis might be complicated by the introduction of the African dominance of running and also the increased use of aerodynamics in the cycling world.Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05174378205222344598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-76760608341275960792010-08-22T19:47:19.863-04:002010-08-22T19:47:19.863-04:00You asked why the 5k and 10k were used as test com...You asked why the 5k and 10k were used as test comparisons, instead of the marathon. It's for the same reason there is no world record for the marathon, only a "world-best time", because marathon courses can vary so much in layout, terrain and profile. The track races are run on more or less uniform 400 metre tracks, with the only variation being the weather, which means one less variable to consider in the comparative times.<br />Otherwise, a very thought-provoking piece.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-10233774467245606232010-08-22T17:32:35.598-04:002010-08-22T17:32:35.598-04:00Anonymous at 2:14 : I was curious to get my hands ...Anonymous at 2:14 : I was curious to get my hands on that article as well. I don't think it was published online, it was a strictly paper content in their magazine. If you hear anything about it, let me know.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16268869622833968439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-58879372318847305262010-08-22T14:14:33.602-04:002010-08-22T14:14:33.602-04:00Does anyone have a copy or link to the Procycling ...Does anyone have a copy or link to the Procycling article of vintage vs carbon bike comparison??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-70769244127664149502010-08-22T13:45:09.030-04:002010-08-22T13:45:09.030-04:00Comparing year-to-year is difficult due to varying...Comparing year-to-year is difficult due to varying conditions, not just road & weather, but also the competitive forces in play at the time. And 2003... if you're comparing that to stage 17 this year (the one where you say they left "everyone else for dead"), that was climbing the mountain from the other side. Also, 2003 saw the Tourmalet as the penultimate climb, not the final. They still had Luz Ardiden to go.<br /><br />This year, stage 17 was nothing short of bizarre. The weather was awful for much of the race, the Tourmalet itself shrouded in fog when it was being belted by lightning & rain. And the race itself? With 3 or 4 kilometers to go, Andy & Alberto called a truce and stopped attacking each other. Further, there was no sustained effort to keep the pace high. Instead, just a series of short attacks, repeated a number of times, essentially intervals while climbing. That is never the fastest way to get to the top. Even world-class cyclists are going to be more efficient by staying out of the red zone on a long effort. That's why some cyclists are so boring to watch... when an attack hits, they remain patient and slowly claw their way back when the attackers inevitably slow down to recover (Levi is a good example of this).Mike Jacoubowskyhttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/7b6911bd323765db/35c7506fa59040fc#35c7506fa59040fcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-89321064609373212102010-08-22T13:05:45.615-04:002010-08-22T13:05:45.615-04:00Ron - GREAT article and very good points. I have s...Ron - GREAT article and very good points. I have some book suggestions for further research. Get your hands on "Blazing Saddles: The Cruel & Unusual History of the Tour de France" if you can. It runs down the history of every Tour upto 2007 and is a good reference. "Dancing Chain" and "Breaking the Chain" are also excellent titles on the derailleur bicycle and the extent of doping.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-72072979019098116392010-08-22T12:33:56.102-04:002010-08-22T12:33:56.102-04:00Excellent discussion!
One important point - moder...Excellent discussion!<br /><br />One important point - modern race bike can be faster in decisive moments , such as an attack on a mountain or a sprint for green jersey points. If your 25 lb steel tank is not able to help you respond in those situations, it could be "game over". <br /><br />Its interesting that BQ found little co-relation between bicycle technology and average speeds every year. The effect is too small a number and overwhelmed by other factors in the Tour. Shorter tours or stages force riders to push the pace harder, like a criterium where from the gun shot, the pace is very high. Shorter stages with fast downhills will also push the pace high. If a race is neutralized for some reason, the pace goes down substantially. This is why I think its important to take each year's race and closely study what happened and how it unfolded.<br /><br />Perhaps we can say that the initial question that BQ sought to study had some flaws to it. Its like trying to find a small pin in a big ocean. I really wouldn't spend much of my time in trying to find out if ceramic bearings had an effect on the overall average speeds in the Tour. Its silly and easily understandable that the effect would be miniscule.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-45513695646999802282010-08-22T00:58:00.349-04:002010-08-22T00:58:00.349-04:00BQ may have opened up a forum for discussion but f...BQ may have opened up a forum for discussion but for the amount of time and hours they put into writing this, we're back to sqauare 1 really. Are bikes really faster? Perhaps. Perhaps not. I don't know.<br /><br />What stands out in this discussion is the fact that it was race circumstances and myriad invariables & difficulties during the old Tours that most affected the speeds period. The Tour could care less if riders could shave 1 second shifting their gears with improved shifting or if the bike got lighter by a few grams because of a few holes poked into the crankarm. Just because the bikes didn't factor much into the average speeds of the Tour doesn't mean they are not faster.Trackasaurusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-33743500017576700722010-08-21T23:06:13.630-04:002010-08-21T23:06:13.630-04:00Perhaps its not the bike weights themselves but so...Perhaps its not the bike weights themselves but something associated with their geometries that make them suited for racing? If we go along that argument, custom tailor made race bikes these days could be both comfortable and faster for riders than their heavier counterparts of the 30's and 40's...Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-78694155858831330352010-08-21T22:46:02.008-04:002010-08-21T22:46:02.008-04:00"They were farmers, miners, and other laborer...<b>"They were farmers, miners, and other laborers. Now, they're paid to ride, it's their occupation, they can focus entirely on performance for riding. That's one of the main differences between the past and present speeds, I'd think." </b><br /><br />@ Anonymous at 10:37 : Very good point sir!Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-73911512401915551862010-08-21T22:41:53.556-04:002010-08-21T22:41:53.556-04:00TdF average speeds increased and decreased fairly ...TdF average speeds increased and decreased fairly dramatically in the 25 years of basically no advancements in technology between ~1950 and ~1980. Since the tightening of doping control a few years back, average speeds at the Tour have dropped. (I think that was one of the things that lulled Armstrong into believing he could make a comeback, but he had to race on very different doping than he was used to- sorry, a bit cynical there, I don't believe there are any pro bike racers who don't dope). <br /><br />There are too many other factors that can affect the average speed: changes in training, competitive factors, differences in route,drugs <br />and doping, weather, etc. <br /><br />The BQ article did two interesting things. FIrst, it compared TdF average speeds with runners (middle distance, I think) over the same years and found that the rate of increase in average speed was very similar despite there being few technological improvements in running. The conclusion was that changes in human factors (e.g., training,doping, etc.) weighed much more heavily than changes in bike technology. I haven't decided if I agree or not. <br /><br />The other interesting thing was using Milan-San Remo as a comparison, since there have been very few course changes in the entire history of the race. This reduces the effects of differences in terrain, resulting in very similar results as comparing the TdF to running. <br /><br />It's an interesting article. I am not sure how valid comparing increases in the speed of runners versus cyclists is. It would be interesting to compare a third endurance sport- Nordic skiing, although that has had a watershed technological change from traditional diagonal stride to skating so perhaps not a good comparison.Tim McNamarahttp://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/7b6911bd323765db#noreply@blogger.com