tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post5355451644576357544..comments2024-03-13T02:16:08.135-04:00Comments on Cozy Beehive: Analysis : "This Way" Commuter Bicycle ConceptRon Georgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-9706541574298770242009-01-31T05:28:00.000-05:002009-01-31T05:28:00.000-05:00I think its also an image thing - some folk just h...I think its also an image thing - some folk just have a negative view of cycling . period . such as .. 'for folk who cannot afford a car', 'for athletes', 'for enthusiasts', or for nerds ? .... I am non of the others so I guess I am a nerd :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-75616766025012012672009-01-30T14:18:00.000-05:002009-01-30T14:18:00.000-05:00to your last point/question - I don't think it's d...to your last point/question - I don't think it's design, or safety or infrastructure that limits people's participation in cycling as an alternative means of transportation. I think the majority of people are just lazy.GregPBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07009157302198309294noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-83923759744545965092009-01-29T17:58:00.000-05:002009-01-29T17:58:00.000-05:0065 total entries??Where are the rest?65 total entries??<BR/><BR/>Where are the rest?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-28510019671342899682009-01-29T14:35:00.000-05:002009-01-29T14:35:00.000-05:00Anon @ 2:15 : How about acrylic/plexiglass? Windsh...Anon @ 2:15 : How about acrylic/plexiglass? Windshields in motorcycles are made out of them. However, its only about 3% as impact resistant as polycarbonate, according to <A HREF="http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Fairing.html" REL="nofollow">this website</A>. Same website has some interesting things to say about Von Karman vortice generation on windshields. Bad for aerodynamics I guess?<BR/><BR/><BR/>DankMTB : Solar energy is perhaps the most available and all forms of life use it in some way or fashion (except some in the deep ocean). However, cost effectively applying this to modern houses and vehicles is an entirely different thing. While it all sounds nice and 'green', the cost is still prohibitive as of today. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/28/solar.powered.cars/index.html" REL="nofollow">Here's a CNN tech article</A> writing that solar cells in automobiles are still a long way off from today. Its a far reaching goal. According to the article, Toyota has huge plans to incorporate solar panels into their cars but the project will take years to bring the costs down. This is why I'm suspicious that "This Way" from Torkel can be cost effectively produced at 1000 dollars as one of the judges said in this competition.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-74317263148673122432009-01-29T14:15:00.000-05:002009-01-29T14:15:00.000-05:00The windshield is a BIG issue. Polycarbonate is ha...The windshield is a BIG issue. Polycarbonate is hard to mold in way that does not have severe optical distortions, and is easily scratched.Sailplane canopies overcome this by being hideously expensive and handled with extreme care on the ground. A glass windshield can overcome these problems, but at a significant cost on weight. Defogging the windshield in poor weather is also a major problem.<BR/><BR/>I suspect this is why a lot of velomobile designer have gone to the "exposed rider's head" design.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-78251043363880348272009-01-29T14:08:00.001-05:002009-01-29T14:08:00.001-05:00Until there's a prototype that's actually practica...Until there's a prototype that's actually practical to build, buy and use, it's vaporware. Today's commuters need something that they can buy and use *now*, and this isn't it. Whether it ever will reach the point of being a real product is somewhat worse than just debatable; too many of the "apparent practical disadvantages" are in areas which are well-known to be nontrivial.<BR/><BR/>My prediction: This concept will not prove as horribly profitless to<BR/>investors as Moller's flying car, but it will ultimately be nearly as<BR/>unsuccessful, for some of the same reasons. In the case of this<BR/>project, the prototype may well be fully functional, but will prove<BR/>both impractical to build and less useful in real-world environments<BR/>than expected; given that similar attempts have been made many times,<BR/>there is no reason to expect that the results will be different in<BR/>this instance. If it reaches production, there will be a small<BR/>specialty market for it, but the overall response from the marketplace is unlikely to be enthusiastic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-84159384548227123262009-01-29T13:54:00.000-05:002009-01-29T13:54:00.000-05:00Solar as a whole is still more complicated and exp...Solar as a whole is still more complicated and expensive than it needs to be. I'm currently looking into a solar charge system for a sailboat I'm restoring. My options seem to be spend way more than I consider reasonable (and even then options are quite limited), or patch together an equally efficient and far more cost effective but more bulky and cumbersome system on my own. One would think complete, reasonably priced solar systems would be more common than they are.<BR/><BR/>Lighting a bike with it? No thanks, Ive got my hands full trying to light my boat where weight is no concern.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-66921953245943102282009-01-29T13:51:00.000-05:002009-01-29T13:51:00.000-05:00Interesting link. I think roof is IMPOSSIBLE witho...Interesting link. I think roof is IMPOSSIBLE without going into<BR/>tricycle - and crosswind would make that bike to crash. But trike<BR/>with solar panels and A LOT of cargo space - that sound like a<BR/>possibility. Weight is a bit of a limiting factor as far as<BR/>transporting but perhaps there is a way to tow a big trike behind<BR/>the car?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-43826586794299928462009-01-28T22:06:00.000-05:002009-01-28T22:06:00.000-05:00Anon @ 6:17pm : I welcome all kinds of sarcasm but...Anon @ 6:17pm : I welcome all kinds of sarcasm but I was only trying to offer ideas for improvement in this design. If you want to downgrade every single suggestion put forth go ahead. Whatever floats your boat.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon @ 7:27pm : Yes, I agree that perception to a degree is responsible for safety concerns. These may be right or wrong perceptions. However, they are present and real and in most cases, there is solid reason for it. Can you argue that the NEED to dissolve wrong perceptions are insignificant and unimportant compared to the VITAL need to keep producing more varieties of bikes? What good is that going to do?<BR/><BR/>Root cause prevention is better than cure my friend.<BR/><BR/>I have problems with your website for a few reasons. Remember, statistics can play with your mind if you don't do some critical thinking :<BR/><BR/>1) No links to actual citations.<BR/><BR/>2) Outdated data for our times. Think : the number people may have doubled, the number of vehicles on the roads may have quadrupled from 1990 to 2008! That could increase the odds of drunk driving and crime. New technology, bad companies, bad manufacturing methods can all cause failures in bikes. The injuries, or fatalities from these events aren't explored either. So whether you're skilled or not doesn't mean cycling is necessarily safer. There are lots of variables to consider.<BR/><BR/>3) Where's the data for the rest of the world? Do people only bike or have perceptions about it in USA?<BR/><BR/>4) What is the cutoff for these rates between urban and rural cycling, road and off road cycling, and just different types of cycling? These are not evident in your data. It may very well be that these numbers pertain to a safer form of cycling while discounting others.<BR/><BR/>4) People not only bike for utility purposes, they also compete on it. Competition is an extreme case scenario you can't under rule, where ever it may be.<BR/><BR/>5) Other subtle things like increase in popularity of cycling may also increase the rates of injury. These aspects aren't explored by your site.<BR/><BR/>4) While your website puts actual numbers to injuries and fatalities, its sort of downplaying it by comparing it with other more dangerous activities. So isn't there a value to these numbers??? Keep in mind that a leg bruised, an arm lost, or a shoulder broken can put you off work, lower the quality of your life and may decrease your privileges in society. Whether a cyclist injures himself lesser than a motorist is not the question. The question is 'HAS THE CYCLIST INJURED HIMSELF?' If yes, its bad and somewhere, something is wrong.<BR/><BR/>Cycling is a great and healthy activity but the society at large and the environment within which we bike is the problem. Perceptions are a product of this environment. They don't just come out of no where.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-68099526619958704312009-01-28T19:47:00.000-05:002009-01-28T19:47:00.000-05:00At the end of your article you said "Is poor bicyc...At the end of your article you said "Is poor bicycle design really the culprit in keeping people away from cycling, as opposed to safety problems..."<BR/><BR/>Sorry, the only safety problem keeping people from bicycling is that they THINK it's dangerous, partly because articles keep telling them so. Any unbiased look at real numbers shows that bicycling is safe.<BR/><BR/>Try http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/SafetyQuiz.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-34353808566647056882009-01-28T18:17:00.000-05:002009-01-28T18:17:00.000-05:00Your comment on a steering wheel is hilarious. Aft...Your comment on a steering wheel is hilarious. After the next few ideas remaining for this design like a bumper, a trunk, and a sunroof for the roof, I think it'd just be better off buying a car instead of riding a toy for adult daycare.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-17570043698960752992009-01-28T16:23:00.000-05:002009-01-28T16:23:00.000-05:00Thanks Anon @ 3:11I was thinking a little more abo...Thanks Anon @ 3:11<BR/><BR/>I was thinking a little more about the handlebars. Since this bike was designed to sort of look like a car, why go for a straight handlebar design? Why not do a round shape, steering wheel? You could then maybe have buttons on it to activate the lights. Just a thought. A round shape makes it obvious that the rider can change his hand position better for comfort, as opposed to the limitations of a handlebar. A handlebar isn't even much of a concern here since the rider is most in a recumbent position and he won't be standing on the pedals to climb hills.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-39264582092759062812009-01-28T15:11:00.000-05:002009-01-28T15:11:00.000-05:00It would be nice if this was done as a tadpole tri...It would be nice if this was done as a tadpole trike, with 2 front wheels, giving it much better stability to counteract the wind torque the wind/rainshield could add. also make it much easier to maneuver in the city.<BR/><BR/>I agree that the handlebars need to be more convenient/lower to the normal position of arms. USS is the way to go.<BR/><BR/>Original design and these improvements are all very good and insightful. Well done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-80036294847329825172009-01-27T22:53:00.000-05:002009-01-27T22:53:00.000-05:00Ron : I came to this blog looking for something di...Ron : I came to this blog looking for something different. And I just love your insight. Keep up the good job!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-14613753646220688672009-01-27T04:47:00.000-05:002009-01-27T04:47:00.000-05:00Jimmythefly - thanks for your great post, it teach...Jimmythefly - thanks for your great post, it teaches us by example creative critisism. <BR/><BR/>And James for reminding us this is a concept competition to effectively brainstorm how to bring in the vast majority 160m into using human powered transport a shocking figure compared to 13m bike users.<BR/><BR/>I am glad apple was mentioned above as they brought the iPod without following Market research, and this competition could be thought of as how would apple approach bicycle design ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-75557448439270520272009-01-27T00:46:00.000-05:002009-01-27T00:46:00.000-05:00College. Perhaps I should return.College. Perhaps I should return.jimmytheflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060952522546330342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-835947410111961232009-01-27T00:45:00.000-05:002009-01-27T00:45:00.000-05:00Ron, thanks for the trophy! Yep, this gets my brai...Ron, thanks for the trophy! Yep, this gets my brain working in a good way, and it's a subject I'm (we're) passionate about. It's easy to post a quick smarmy comment on BSNYC, but this deserves better. I think that's the most I've typed continuously since collete!jimmytheflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060952522546330342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-26929426866755738252009-01-26T22:50:00.000-05:002009-01-26T22:50:00.000-05:00"The most obvious fantasy in the spec of this thin..."The most obvious fantasy in the spec of this thing is the claimed 12-13 kg weight, including roof. That suggests something like an all-cf frame (and a fastidiously light one, at that), which seems unlikely for $500, $1000, or even $2000."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Ryan : Good call. 12-13kg total vehicle for 1000 dollars seems almost utopian to me. Just as an example, the Go-One HPV is around 15-20 kgs total, but costs close to 10,000 dollars. Go-One's cost is not only prohibitive to 90% of the people, but I cannot see how a closed design like that is comfortable for long distance travel, especially if it becomes a greenhouse in the sun. Moreover, with carbon fiber not as durable as traditional materials, covering your entire bike and roof with that stuff is just inviting trouble for your wallet over the long run.<BR/><BR/>Check out <A HREF="http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/bike-rain-roof1.jpg" REL="nofollow">this upright bike with a roof. Simple add-on for weather protection! </A>Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-60657807665563628902009-01-26T22:27:00.000-05:002009-01-26T22:27:00.000-05:00Jimmythefly : Here's an invisible trophy for compl...Jimmythefly : Here's an invisible trophy for completing the biggest comment on my blog yet. Did the coffee cup on the header motivate you that much?<BR/><BR/>I like your discussion with me, as opposed to others who have attacked me from left and right without adding anything valuable to this topic.<BR/><BR/>For point # 3 on solar cells, what irked me is that it was almost as if Torkel gave an afterthought to his solar panel idea, even though its one of the central themes. Yet, no evidence of any solar cell in the rendering. <BR/><BR/>For a professional presentation, that hardly cuts it. This was somewhat more informal and a fun competition, yet for the prize of a 1000 dollar Bad Boy bike, Torkel could have done more, if not give us pin point accurate engineering calculations. <BR/><BR/>Also, reasonably feasible is not feasible. <BR/><BR/>Torkel himself declares his design as "feasible" on his website.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-48697208997273533412009-01-26T21:48:00.000-05:002009-01-26T21:48:00.000-05:00"I just want to add, regarding your last paragraph..."I just want to add, regarding your last paragraph, that it was acknowledged from the start of the competition that infrastructure improvement would likely make a much larger difference in bicycle commuting popularity. The blog isn't about infrastructure, though."<BR/><BR/>Thanks for stating that jimmythefly. I have seen comments to that effect all over the place today, and yeah, I have acknowledged many times that infrastructure is a much bigger issue. I just think it is funny that so many people keep bringing that up like it somehow invalidates the very idea behind the competition.<BR/><BR/>I can say that I have done a LOT of advocacy work in my local community because I do want to make conditions better for all cyclists. I hope that all the other people bringing that issue up in the various comments are doing the same.James Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06558670871159677266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-45464063171059556862009-01-26T21:36:00.000-05:002009-01-26T21:36:00.000-05:00The most obvious fantasy in the spec of this thing...The most obvious fantasy in the spec of this thing is the claimed 12-13 kg weight, including roof. That suggests something like an all-cf frame (and a fastidiously light one, at that), which seems unlikely for $500, $1000, or even $2000. <BR/><BR/>At the risk of being blunt, most people who don't ride bikes don't want to pedal. Pedaling (and concommitant sweating) messes up your look far more than any rain storm could hope to, and 120 years of commuting have caused some very effective rainwear to appear on the market, and it works better worn by the rider than the bicycle.<BR/><BR/>Half the finalists appear to have compromised their bicycles by making them, fundamentally, really heavy. There's hasn't been a lot of call for bicycles to get heavier, at least not from people who actually pedal them.<BR/><BR/>Bikes (mostly trikes like the velomobile, really) like these do exist, and do work, but you often hear that the first thing the owner added was an electric-assist. A "hybrid" faired electric/pedaled trike goes some considerable way to being a sensible vehicle, and its weight is mitigated by its electric assist.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15514653089603456867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-4166709108768540332009-01-26T20:26:00.000-05:002009-01-26T20:26:00.000-05:00I just want to add, regarding your last paragraph,...I just want to add, regarding your last paragraph, that it was acknowledged from the start of the competition that infrastructure improvement would likely make a much larger difference in bicycle commuting popularity. The blog isn't about infrastructure, though.<BR/><BR/>Shimano did some homework before introducing coasting, I'd love for them to share it, but they paid for it and I doubt they'll give it away for free. Sadly, they neglected to do a better job education the LBS employee on how to introduce it to potential customers.<BR/><BR/>My responses to your initial questions:<BR/>1. A design that looks and feels like a car will not answer all the questions, but a design that looks and feels like a bike has been tried for quite a while now. <BR/>2. Good question, maybe just not in the scope of time/effort for this competition.<BR/>3. This is a design competition that was supposed to be reasonably feasible, it didn't need to be production-ready with all costs and engineering completed. <BR/>4. I actually quite like the roof/windscreen. It may not protect completely, but it will keep the majority of the rain off, which can make quite a difference.<BR/>5. Talk to some recumbent riders from the midwest. I see no reason why the tires on this bike can't be changed for studded ones. <BR/>6. Yes, the cost might be more for an internal hub, but shifting while sitting still at a stop sign would seem an advantage for this bike. What do you mean by "probably won't be able to enjoy some things". <BR/>7. I'm unclear on how center of gravity makes a huge difference in safety? At any rate, this thing will look like a UFO going down the road/path so visibility won't be a problem. I agree that an upright bike allows the rider a better view over car roofs, etc, but none of us can see around an H2 with tinted windows. When you stop you put a foot down, simple. Yes, a kickstand will need to be standard equipment. <BR/>Windshield: There are quite a few plastic helmet visors, motorcycle windscreens, etc. The issue of scratching needs to be looked at, but is not a fundamental design flaw, just a technical challenge. Good call on view restriction by the A pillars needing to be worked out before production.<BR/><BR/>8. Yeah, looks like the bars/pedals /seat position may need more adjustment. Again, this is a minor issue, easily addressed before production -right now it looks like it's maxed out for a 6'3" rider. On a conventional bicycle if you want more pressure on the pedals than your body weight, you must pull down on the bars(or be clipped in). On this bike you have a seatback to push into, like the leg press at the gym. I know some recumbent riders who destroy me on hills. Yeah, the turning circle will be huge for this thing.<BR/>9. Yep, needs a kickstand. The frame needs some "handles" or ears at belt-height that one could use to U-lock to a bike rack.<BR/>10. Huge demerit for not fitting on a bus bike-rack. Roof rack on a car would work, or a Draftmaster-style hitch rack. A minivan or long wagon would also work. The solutions already exist for tandems and LWB recumbents.<BR/>11. True.<BR/>12. This will be the biggest obstacle, just ahead of getting LBS employees to sell it. I can't see how this could be made cheaply, but there are plenty of $3k bikes out there that never see a race course, too. People like nice things, and some can even afford them. Long term, I see this being about the same upkeep as a standard bike, maybe less because the drivetrain is protected from the elements. The electronics/solar cells could get expensive, though.<BR/>13. I'd say no copy. Recumbents have been a round a long time, and designing one with a monocoque construction isn't really novel. Same goes for the idea of a fairing or roof, especially when you start looking at motorcycles/scooters with roofs. <BR/>14. I kinda doubt it, mostly for the reasons of your last paragraph. Namely, that there are other larger obstacles to overcome, and a company risking much on a design that may only win a small percentage of consumers might not be an attractive business decision. But I'm no businessman, so who knows?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the blog and the analysis, it's good food for my brain!jimmytheflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10060952522546330342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-62633195693586355462009-01-26T11:48:00.000-05:002009-01-26T11:48:00.000-05:00Asb : Lets try and put a number 4) to that.Most no...Asb : <BR/><BR/>Lets try and put a number 4) to that.<BR/><BR/>Most non-cyclists I talk around here have such a degrading notion of riding a bicycle. They think its slower, you get sweaty, dirty and that your status is somehow lowered by actually riding. <BR/><BR/>The way I respond to them is simple. I show them the high efficiency of a human powered bike for energy consumed/km and I also tell them about the tonnage of CO2 a bicycle releases in a year - which is nil (if you neglect the manufacturing of bikes, clothing and the food we consume)<BR/><BR/>So :<BR/><BR/>4) Absolute ignoranceRonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16268869622833968439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-71659279667337259282009-01-26T01:34:00.000-05:002009-01-26T01:34:00.000-05:00But let's face it... no amount of cool bicycles ar...But let's face it... no amount of cool bicycles are going to lure drivers to become riders. Key issue is laziness and most people are not willing to give it up without a good reason.<BR/><BR/>Good reasons include:<BR/><BR/>1) Degrading personal health (doctor orders)<BR/>2) Environmental concerns (requires capability to altruism)<BR/>3) Law (requires major change in government)<BR/>4) ?asbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06042905052259872023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-40380208333829372462009-01-26T01:15:00.000-05:002009-01-26T01:15:00.000-05:00Anon 12:21Read the design brief from the original ...Anon 12:21<BR/><BR/>Read the design brief from the original competition announcement. It says: "do make sure that your concepts are based in reality (don’t break the laws of physics, etc) and that they are manufacturable using existing technology"<BR/><BR/>In my opinion that requires practicality.<BR/><BR/>The purpose of competitions like this is maximizing media coverage. Cannondale got quite a few blog mentions in ultra positive context with the price (not retail) of one bicycle. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>This is not my bike, but I think it is a very sensible and useful commuter bike. It could use a chain guard and front basket or rack to make laptop loading easier, but panniers work well too. Smart, sensible, useful, cheap, manufacturable and absolutely not sexy or interesting at all.<BR/><BR/>http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3416/3215183019_0ed3ab2538_b.jpgasbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06042905052259872023noreply@blogger.com