tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post1794810104758172529..comments2024-03-13T02:16:08.135-04:00Comments on Cozy Beehive: A Petition To the Bicycle Industry On Safety Of ProductsRon Georgehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-22203739915416737202013-01-17T15:52:04.491-05:002013-01-17T15:52:04.491-05:00Too often, occupational accidents are considered a...Too often, occupational accidents are considered a price of progress in developing countries. but they also occur in advanced nations. Whether we challenge nature at thirteen thousand feet underground in a South African gold mine or thirty-nine thousand feet below sea level exploring for oil in the Gulf of Mexico or at three hundred thousand kilometers in space en route to the moon—accidents can and will happen despite the best safety regulations. Human beings make mistakes, and sometimes equipment fails. Mothers often protest that they were only distracted for an instant when their child disappeared. “Pilot error” is still the leading cause of airplane crashes!<br /><br />Industrial, mining and, consumer safety should never be compromised for profits; neither should margins of safety where food and pharmaceutical products are concerned. Aircraft, space vehicle, and automobile manufacturing as well as the production of power tools and equipment are further examples of industrial safety challenges—as are consumer products, from toasters, to contact lenses, to cribs—especially imported cribs. Then there are procedural and processing standards that require constant upgrading in chemical plants and hospitals as technology advances. There are safety concerns regarding the very frontiers of science. These include the safety of our astronauts in space exploration, the safety of people downrange of sites from which military and civilian rockets are launched, and the safety of offshore and land-based drilling for oil and gas, to name but a few.<br /><br />You can buy this book now on any of the following websites:<br /><br />Strategic Book Publishing Rights Agency: http://sbpra.com/HenryMarkant/ <br /><br />Amazon Books: http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Crises-Their-Solutions-ebook/dp/B00A2WZ4CK/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357573018&sr=1-1&keywords=coming+crisis+henry+markant <br /><br />Barnes and Noble Books: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/coming-crises-and-their-solutions-henry-markant/1113749628?ean=2940015922875Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-85941986806719222302009-07-18T15:45:06.955-04:002009-07-18T15:45:06.955-04:00My understanding (from reading a bit on the net, n...My understanding (from reading a bit on the net, not industry) there exists the "marketing strong" carbon fibre, used in aerospace etc applications. Other industries use the other class of carbon fibre which is much much weaker but marketing doesn't differentiate it in any way from the strong non recycled, still expensive to make one. I read about this subject sometime ago when trying to clean up the related wikipedia articles.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-70307286393608904502008-12-22T23:29:00.000-05:002008-12-22T23:29:00.000-05:00Ryan :All true. I have to point one thing out. Tes...Ryan :<BR/><BR/>All true. I have to point one thing out. Testing of composite materials are very complex. It is still a maturing field. You cannot achieve success by using the same testing methods for composites that would otherwise use for traditional homogeneous materials, primarily because of their non-intuitive failure modes and anisotropy. I have seen videos of companies doing strictly uniaxial testing to prove some point on quality, however this is not guaranteed to tell the true story of the material in your bicycle. You have pointed out the existence of CSPC, but they are not a certification authority on testing composites. I believe there should be very stringent requirements to be expected from composite bicycle products before they even get out in the market. What would be the agency in the U.S taking care of this, or whether there actually exists one, I do not know. I'm very interested to know what their requirements for certification are, if there exists such an agency.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-6005713540592742592008-12-19T22:57:00.000-05:002008-12-19T22:57:00.000-05:00Hi Ron, Most top bike companies use value stream m...Hi Ron, <BR/><BR/>Most top bike companies use value stream mapping very effectively.<BR/>These same companies have implemented and use Lean mfg principles every day. <BR/><BR/>You should really take the time and contact some of them to get a better understanding of things. I think it would really help out not only you, but everyone who reads this blog to really gain a much better insight on the amount of effort that goes into a bicycle.<BR/><BR/>I know for a fact that Trek, SRAM, Fox Racing Shox, The Hayes Group, Cannondale, and many others have been doing this for many years now. I think all of them would be happy to share some of their philosophy in matters like what you are discussing here. <BR/> - RyanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-84913063371454904162008-12-19T22:40:00.000-05:002008-12-19T22:40:00.000-05:00Carbon fiber racing bikes need to conform to FAA, ...Carbon fiber racing bikes need to conform to FAA, if there's nothing else that's better. FAA is followed in the F1 industry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-17152098432255796932008-12-17T20:51:00.000-05:002008-12-17T20:51:00.000-05:00Right. Its called value stream mapping. That shoul...Right. Its called value stream mapping. That should give a basic idea where the faults lie.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-37067776005011733762008-12-17T17:24:00.000-05:002008-12-17T17:24:00.000-05:00I have one issue to point out. In a lot of industr...I have one issue to point out. In a lot of industry circles, people are use their wealth of experience and skill in designing bikes as opposed to serious engineering techniques like you would find behind a modern aircraft. Do you think a small 5 man facility would have the supercomputers, testing facilities and licenses to state of the art analysis software? Probably not! Hence you have a point in saying that companies should review their sub suppliers because the just buy parts from them and put it on their bikes. Premature failures are a cost to the buyer for basically nothing. So it can be viewed as Infinite Cost, if you will.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-32840471497485689192008-12-17T17:11:00.000-05:002008-12-17T17:11:00.000-05:00Thanks for elaborating and providing some failure ...Thanks for elaborating and providing some failure examples. Like you noted, you're "writing for the world," which means not all of us will have previously read your blog, which is why statements that might seem obvious to you and your loyal readers seem like significant jumps in the logical progression to people like me.Colin Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06289923497258059725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-77801305681947797782008-12-17T17:00:00.000-05:002008-12-17T17:00:00.000-05:00Colin : The failures I'm calling out is not just f...Colin : The failures I'm calling out is not just for carbon composite parts. Its for anything that goes on a bicycle, whether its made with straw and thatch or Incoloy, whether its used by a kid or a veteran. I was trying to make a point that that whoever is producing bikes or components, whether the intention is to make it lightweight or more beautiful or whatever, has to use proper engineering techniques and assumptions, manufacturing and testing methods to arrive at a fail safe final product in normal circumstances.<BR/><BR/>Just as example :<BR/><BR/>Here's what bad design in split handlebar extensions did. <A HREF="http://www.bikexprt.com/witness/product/stems.htm" REL="nofollow">Click here.</A> This isn't carbon fiber.<BR/><BR/>And here's what improper wheel lacing did to an aluminum hub flange. <A HREF="http://www.bikexprt.com/witness/product/wheels.htm" REL="nofollow">Click here.</A> Infact, failures such as these were even seen on certain Bontragers, as <A HREF="http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-bontrager-wheel.html" REL="nofollow">I noted on my blog last year.</A><BR/><BR/>Generally, I'm seeing dangerous trends in the lightweight designs of critical items like helmets, wheels, handlebars and stems where a failure could affect a cyclist seriously. Some more thought has to be put into the proper design of such systems, because it seems to me as if the rat race for market share is pressurizing companies to keep renewing product line sooner and sooner without adequate review of what they have built. Since this market is global, this part could be anywhere in the world tomorrow. Whether a person in the third world has the resources to buy it, that's a secondary issue.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-3225371993371126432008-12-17T15:03:00.000-05:002008-12-17T15:03:00.000-05:00@ Colin : You're digressing and bringing on a need...@ Colin : You're digressing and bringing on a needless discussion by connecting carbon bars with drunk driving related accidents. You should read this post again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-81592010015984981512008-12-17T14:55:00.000-05:002008-12-17T14:55:00.000-05:00Please read the context of my statement before any...Please read the context of my statement before anything. It was a general comment about the incidental risks associated with cycling, wherever that may be. Thanks for reading.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-15703579062044713702008-12-17T14:45:00.000-05:002008-12-17T14:45:00.000-05:00Ok. So what to carbon bars have to do with DUI-re...Ok. So what to carbon bars have to do with DUI-related fatalities in developing countries, exactly?<BR/><BR/>I had assumed that you were talking about the first world in your post because lightweight bike components are generally purchased there.Colin Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06289923497258059725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-14938257908584256352008-12-17T14:00:00.000-05:002008-12-17T14:00:00.000-05:00READ :"A study by the World Health Organization (W...READ :<BR/><BR/><BR/>"A study by the World Health Organization (WHO) and the World Bank finds that traffic fatalities, including those caused by alcohol, are a serious world health problem that is often overlooked, the Washington Post reported April 7.<BR/>One in every 50 deaths worldwide is associated with road accidents, the study found, and traffic crashes are second only to childhood infections and AIDS as a killer of people between the ages of 5 and 30.<BR/><BR/>Each year, 1.2 million drivers, passengers, cyclists, and pedestrians are killed in traffic crashes. By 2020, traffic deaths are expected to increase by 80 percent as hundreds of millions of cars are added to the roads.<BR/><BR/>"It is already huge, but if nothing happens it is expected to rise," said Etienne Krug, director of WHO's department of injuries and violence prevention.<BR/><BR/>Among the recommendations in the 217-page report are measures for developing countries, such as India, China, and southeast Asia. They include stricter enforcement of drunk-driving laws, better road designs, increased use of seatbelts, and improved design and inspection of vehicles. "<BR/><BR/><BR/>From DUI.COMRon Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-25981553661481238882008-12-17T13:55:00.000-05:002008-12-17T13:55:00.000-05:00Colin R : When I write a post, I write it for the ...Colin R : <BR/><BR/>When I write a post, I write it for the world. <BR/><BR/>I'm not just targetting U.S of A. Perhaps you're pulling this information for the States. Get real. People just don't cycle here. Drinking is universal. Also, for most of the data like these, statistical samples are pretty small that you cannot see a definite pattern from year to year. In other third world countries, I would imagine the high rate of vehicle-cyclist collisions to be one of the prime discouraging factors for people from riding their bikes. And since there's always safety in numbers, the lesser number of cyclists could further promote the death of cycling.<BR/><BR/>In the U.S, standards are pretty high and advocacy is up there that even if drunk driving exists, the number of cyclists on the road keep climbing. Which is a good thing I believe.<BR/><BR/>Yet, drunk driving exists and thats the fact. It depends on a lot of factors. Bad economic times, ban of cigarettes, low oil prices, big holiday seasons, lax laws... <BR/><BR/>Bottomline : Drunk driving is increasing traffic fatalities worldwide. Thats why its a huge problem. Not just because it kills cyclists, it actually discourages new cyclists as well.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-57782864580260666442008-12-17T13:01:00.000-05:002008-12-17T13:01:00.000-05:00"Defensive riding won't cut it now""Drunk driving ..."Defensive riding won't cut it <B>now</B>"<BR/><BR/>"Drunk driving is <B>becoming</B> a huge problem, "<BR/><BR/>I hate drunk drivers as much as the next guy, but I take issue with the trends you are implying here. <BR/><BR/>I used checked google to see if drunk driving was getting worse and it appears not to be:<BR/><BR/><I>"The number of fatalities in drunk-driving crashes has declined 38 percent since 1982, going from 21,113 in 1982 to 12,998 in 2007. There were 8,100 fewer drunk-driving fatalities in 2007 than in 1982"</I><BR/><A HREF="http://www.alcoholstats.com/page.aspx?id=136" REL="nofollow">http://www.alcoholstats.com/page.aspx?id=136</A><BR/><BR/>I don't want to offend you, but instead of "personally attesting" to the "increasing number of memorial rides," why not try to find some actual numbers? Or at least state what you have "personally attested" -- you clearly are convinced of by your own (internal) argument, why not share it?<BR/><BR/>Bad stuff happens. Parts failing catastrophically happens. But is it really a significant problem? Are most carbon products unsafe? This is the question you begging -- you assume that everyone <I>just knows</I> bike parts are breaking waaay more often now and it's a <I>big problem</I>.<BR/><BR/>And yet, the only evidence of this huge problem, in the entire article, is that some guy ran carbon bars on a cross bike, and they broke. <BR/><BR/>Your rant is good, but I have no faith in your supporting assumption(s), which makes the point of the rant more easily discounted.Colin Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06289923497258059725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-9048620388104698972008-12-17T11:38:00.000-05:002008-12-17T11:38:00.000-05:00I'm an engineer, and I love data. Sometimes though...I'm an engineer, and I love data. Sometimes though, to make a point, I dont have have to get nitbits of info from all over the place. I wish I had that kind of time. <BR/><BR/>So are you saying drunk driving aren't killing cyclists? Or drunk driving isn't a huge problem at all? You know what I feel about it? Its the bane of the motorized culture we live in. Its absolutely terrible.<BR/><BR/>I can personally attest to the increasing number of "memorial" rides because a cyclist was killed in such a collision.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-87857303775976210302008-12-17T11:18:00.000-05:002008-12-17T11:18:00.000-05:00The unsupported generalities in this post and your...The unsupported generalities in this post and your defending comments upset me, because they run contrary to my intuition:<BR/><BR/><I>Drunk driving is becoming a huge problem</I><BR/><BR/><I>there are far more people seriously injured due to the negligence from the people who make/assemble this stuff</I><BR/><BR/>Are you sure about that? The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."Colin Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06289923497258059725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-82098657024222189742008-12-16T16:20:00.000-05:002008-12-16T16:20:00.000-05:00Carbon bar/stem on a cross bike? You can't save pe...Carbon bar/stem on a cross bike? You can't save people from themselves!jzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17727179613380197538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-59393684498635643862008-12-15T19:42:00.000-05:002008-12-15T19:42:00.000-05:00Let's look at this from another perspective: whil...Let's look at this from another perspective: while you did mention that cyclists have a responsibility to use the equipment for its intended purposes/applications, that point is buried at the bottom of the diatribe...<BR/><BR/>Look, a company can test their products all they want, but a good bit of the responsibility MUST fall on the shoulders of the end user. A lightweight component that may work flawlessly (and safely) for a 140 lb. rider CANNOT be expected to do the same for a 220 lb. rider! Many companies publish weight/use limits on their exotic components (albeit quietly -- this isn't broadcasted as loudly as it should be)...nevertheless, anyone with a credit card can buy said product and do whatever the hell they want with it.<BR/><BR/>So, in short: bicycle companies -- please keep testing and evaluating your products...make them as safe as you can and still perform the way they need to. Consumers -- BE REALISTIC. If you're pushing three bills, do you REALLY think an ultralight handlebar or seatpost or gossamer carbon frame is the best idea for you? And, if you choose to ignore weight and use guidelines, suck it up and move on. The failure of your precious, high-dollar component is a symptom of your vanity and ignorance, not the fault of the company who sold you that component.GhostRiderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09987949431503645433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-8004980854396371052008-12-15T17:03:00.000-05:002008-12-15T17:03:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bluenoserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03448920726947078281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-82700357619724012822008-12-15T12:59:00.000-05:002008-12-15T12:59:00.000-05:00My viewpoints are directed at everyone in the bike...My viewpoints are directed at everyone in the bike business world over. Its a message. Its a reminder. I did not point fingers at any company in particular. I also don't feel my criticism has been destructive; there are far more people seriously injured due to the negligence from the people who make/assemble this stuff. I would love to delve a little deeper into the root causes of such happenings, but then that should be on the top list of someone else's priorities. Thanks for reading Ryan.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-30121226622517399012008-12-15T12:37:00.000-05:002008-12-15T12:37:00.000-05:00Ron, The CPSC is a department of the US government...Ron, <BR/><BR/>The CPSC is a department of the US government. <BR/>I didn't say the testing methodology, or the enforcement of it was super great. I just said the system is there and I also then took the time to provide you a link to the actual testing methodology for bicycles.<BR/>If you do not like their testing methodology that every bicycle sold in the US is required to meet, perhaps you should call your congressmen?<BR/><BR/>In fact, it is the testing regulations of Europe that has required product to be immensely stronger and more resistant to Fatigue, Impact, Corrosion, ect . . . in the last few years and while I am also disappointed that our own CPSC has not kept pace with the requirements in Europe, we are still receiving the benefits on the vast majority of bicycle products sold here in the US simply due to fact that most companies are manufacturing and selling with a global perspective in mind. <BR/><BR/>As I already said, please take the time and educate yourself on the standards bicycle companies need to adhere to, then simply give a few of the larger ones a call and ask them about their Quality System so you can learn a little more about the current status of things. <BR/><BR/>After you do all that, I honestly believe that your opinion will change, but if you are going to willingly maintain your ignorance on a topic you have such a passionate opinion about then you are not adhering to the level of integrity you are expecting everyone else to live up to. <BR/>Please stop simply pointing fingers and start getting constructive. <BR/> - RyanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-62937941552235984432008-12-13T16:52:00.000-05:002008-12-13T16:52:00.000-05:00Ryan,Thanks for your comments again. Not sure wher...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your comments again. Not sure where its really pricking you but let me tell you one thing about the CPSC. Those guys working there do a great job but they have a small staff size and are not able to investigate all complaints they receive. More importantly, they do not have the legal authority to test a product for safety BEFORE its sold to consumers. They also do not have jurisdiction over many other things like tires, for example. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, the guidelines the safety standard used was for the Hazardous Substances Act...which among other things regulated items and toys used by children! Their own understanding of nighttime biking situations are insufficient to adequately protect cyclists. Read <A HREF="http://www.johnforester.com/Articles/lights.htm" REL="nofollow">these articles</A> from J. Forestor for some understanding.<BR/><BR/>Essentially I'm not calling for integrity or commitment from testing agencies. Responsibility should come from the manufacturers themselves. So you aren't getting the gist of what I'm fighting for.Ron Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18394865788996482667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-22144481650639679882008-12-13T13:11:00.000-05:002008-12-13T13:11:00.000-05:00Wow. Saying like it is!Wow. Saying like it is!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13887692.post-68175079472984387702008-12-13T12:19:00.000-05:002008-12-13T12:19:00.000-05:00Ron - Here is a link the the CPSC Bicycle Complia...Ron - Here is a link the the CPSC Bicycle Compliance Test Manual:<BR/>http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/testbicycle.pdf <BR/><BR/>Why don't you start with that, and then get off your ass and educate yourself by looking up all the other regulatory testing standards I just told you about. <BR/>Oh, and I actually forgot about the UCI who in fact actually has specific testing requirements for wheels. <BR/><BR/>Then, I would highly suggest you give SRAM, TREK, FOX Racing Shox, or any major brand in the US a call and ask them about their Quality System. <BR/>I am sure many of them would be nice enough to give you some basic info. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and please stop quoting Craig Calfee as a valid source of composite engineering because he is not a composite engineer, or any other kind of engineer. <BR/>There are plenty of really good composite engineers in the bicycle industry and I am sure many of them would be happy to answer your questions. <BR/><BR/>Then I would suggest you go and ponder the word Integrity and the certain part of that definition as to "Quality characterized by honesty, reliability, and fairness." <BR/>Look inward on that and see if you actually held to a high level of integrity with this post. <BR/><BR/>Quite simply, your post has a huge number of flaws in it primarily due to a massive lack of knowledge with regards to what you are talking about. <BR/>You are a Mechanical Engineer!<BR/>I actually expect more form someone with your background then this trash you've most recently posted. <BR/><BR/>Oh, and you work in the oil and gas industry, huh? <BR/>You know, from your position in that particular industry, I wouldn't be going around and pointing a lot of fingers regarding things like - <BR/>FALSE MARKETING<BR/>CONSEQUENCES FOR A BUSINESS<BR/>BUSINESS PRACTICES<BR/>STANDARDS<BR/>Understand the cost of poor quality.<BR/>PREACH WITH INTEGRITY, ect . . . <BR/><BR/>Lastly, I just want to say that I do apologize for my tone in this comment, but your post is so extremely wrong that it really got under my skin. <BR/>While I will agree that there are some shady companies out there, just like in any industry, the vast majority of them are putting a huge amount of effort into the specific areas you are stating they are not. <BR/><BR/>I would respectfully ask you to build up your knowledge about the areas you are frustrated with and not to paint this issue with such a broad brush. <BR/><BR/>Thank you, <BR/> - RyanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com